parrot-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 22
M. Zaur
greenzed at gmail.com
Fri Dec 17 09:27:10 UTC 2010
Oleg , Parrot, v 2.9.1 ,
in attachment UTF8 variant of translation
2010/12/16 <parrot-dev-request at lists.parrot.org>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: README.ru translation (Oleg Sadov)
> 2. Translations (Andrew Whitworth)
> 3. Re: Translations (Nick Wellnhofer)
> 4. Re: Translations (Todd Olson)
> 5. Re: Translations (Andrew Whitworth)
> 6. Re: Translations (Andrew Whitworth)
> 7. Re: Translations (Todd Olson)
> 8. Re: Translations (Will Coleda)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 17:28:33 +0300
> From: Oleg Sadov <sadov at linux-ink.ru>
> To: Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer at aevum.de>
> Cc: parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org
> Subject: Re: README.ru translation
> Message-ID: <1292509713.29459.52.camel at sadov-t.linux-ink.vo>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> 16/12/2010 14:29 +0100, Nick Wellnhofer wrote:
> > On 16/12/2010 10:14, Zaur Musayev wrote:
> > > This is russian translation for README file
> > >
> > > Used charset : win-1251 (ANSI)
> >
> > I think it would be better to use UTF-8.
>
> Sure.
>
> Zaur, README of which Parrots version used for this translation?
>
> > Nick
>
> --Oleg
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:10:53 -0500
> From: Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111 at gmail.com>
> To: parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org
> Subject: Translations
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinUEYHn2O3rOt84btV0tnE=45OMv-T1oC3bWm8F at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> As part of GCI we have several translations of README available now,
> many of which are being kept in branches until we figure out where to
> put them. I would like to discuss that topic here.
>
> I would like to create a folder docs/translations/ to hold
> translations. That way we don't fill up the root and other important
> directories with a million translations of things. So we would have a
> folder structure like this:
>
> docs/translations/fr/
> docs/translations/ru/
> docs/translations/pt/
> docs/translations/pt-BR/
>
> ...and so on. We can talk about how to organize dialects like pt vs
> pt-BR. I have no particular opinion on whether we want each dialect to
> have it's own folder or to utilize subfolders. Either approach would
> work fine in the short term and it would be easy enough to change back
> and forth if we wanted.
>
> In each translation folder, we can have translated files. Translations
> that have not been reviewed by a native speaker can be suffixed with
> ".DRAFT" to mark those things that we haven't verified. Once something
> has been verified by a native speaking dev, we can drop the ".DRAFT"
> suffix.
>
> So what I would do right now is move some of the existing translations:
>
> README.espanol -> docs/translations/es/README.DRAFT
> README.deutsch -> docs/translations/de/README.DRAFT
> README.polski -> docs/translations/pl/README.DRAFT
>
> This also gives us a convenient place to dump new translations that we
> receive of any file, not just README.
>
> Another thing I suggest we do, and soon, is add a clause to the
> english README to say that only the English version of the
> documentation is "official", and translations might be up-to-date.
> Then we make sure that this clause is included in any translated
> README to set the tone for all other documents which may be
> translated.
>
> Input welcome.
>
> --Andrew Whitworth
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:41:04 +0100
> From: Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer at aevum.de>
> To: parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID: <4D0A3310.90403 at aevum.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 16/12/2010 16:10, Andrew Whitworth wrote:
> > Input welcome.
>
> One thing we should be aware of is that translations need to be updated.
> Imagine we had README translations before the switch to git. That would
> have made all the translated READMEs outdated at once and I guess it
> would have taken quite some time to update them. So there should be a
> way to mark translations as outdated.
>
> Personally, I think translations are a waste of time because it's simply
> too hard to write good translations and keep them updated. We'd better
> spend that time elsewhere. There has been some discussion about the
> quality of the translated READMEs already. No offense to the GCI
> participants, of course. I wouldn't have written better translations
> when I was that age. I can only speak for the German version but as it
> stands now I'd even consider it off-putting for German language users. I
> can offer to fix that although I'd rather spend my time on other things.
>
> Nick
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:47:17 -0500
> From: Todd Olson <tco2 at cornell.edu>
> To: "parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org" <parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org>
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID: <A8180ABA-2ADB-44A0-9629-F9BFAC094DB7 at cornell.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> On 2010-Dec-16, at 10:10, Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>
> > I would like to create a folder docs/translations/ to hold
>
> > ...and so on. We can talk about how to organize dialects like pt vs
> > pt-BR.
>
> nice.
> Perhaps we should push beyond languages to locales
>
> Perhaps we could learn from Apple's design
> (which appears to be very similar to what you propose).
>
>
> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPInternational/Articles/InternatAndLocaliz.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000277-SW1
>
> (3rd paragraph ... 'bundle directory')
>
> Examples on any Mac OS X system see
> /Applications/*.app/Contents/Resources/*.lproj
>
>
>
> > I have no particular opinion on whether we want each dialect to
> > have it's own folder or to utilize subfolders.
>
> It's own folder might be less contentious.
> Is yiddish a dialect of german or it's own language?
>
> Also Language and Locale Designations
>
> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPInternational/Articles/InternatAndLocaliz.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000277-SW1
>
>
> > suffixed with ".DRAFT"
>
> nice.
>
> >
> > Another thing I suggest we do, and soon, is add a clause to the
> > english README to say that only the English version of the
> > documentation is "official"
>
> Should we understand that the english translation would
> otherwise be on the same footing as all other versions ...
> that is, they would all be in docs/translations/en/
>
> Regards,
> Todd Olson
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:03:50 -0500
> From: Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111 at gmail.com>
> To: Todd Olson <tco2 at cornell.edu>
> Cc: "parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org" <parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org>
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTikaA0BN17=UE4R85+diqa3SX_EFood-7bU7P2wU at mail.gmail.com<UE4R85%2Bdiqa3SX_EFood-7bU7P2wU at mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> > Should we understand that the english translation would
> > otherwise be on the same footing as all other versions ...
> > that is, they would all be in ?docs/translations/en/
>
> I would say no. We need something in the root directory for users to
> see, and the English README makes the most sense for that purpose.
> It's also worth noting that English is really the "official" language
> of the project. Our mailing list operates mostly in English, our
> weekly #ps meetings are in English, etc. We write documentation in
> English and from there is translated into other languages. This is
> just a de facto standard, I think. We could vote as a community if we
> like this precedent or not, but for now this really seems like how we
> do business.
>
> Anything in docs/translations would be translations of the English, so
> wouldn't include English as a translation.
>
> --Andrew Whitworth
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:33:49 -0500
> From: Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111 at gmail.com>
> To: Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer at aevum.de>
> Cc: parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTin5=noS=r-q-7rEjD_HL8OQaTRZZ8HX=1tdaX-U at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer at aevum.de>
> wrote:
> > One thing we should be aware of is that translations need to be updated.
> > Imagine we had README translations before the switch to git. That would
> have
> > made all the translated READMEs outdated at once and I guess it would
> have
> > taken quite some time to update them. So there should be a way to mark
> > translations as outdated.
>
> Very true, We always run the risk that translations get out-of-date.
> This is why I think it's important to include a disclaimer directly in
> README that the translations may be old and inaccurate, especially
> when we make big changes like the Git/SVN migration.
>
> However, inaccurate translations aren't the worst things in the world.
> Worse, to my mind, is saying that being a proficient reader of English
> is a requirement for using Parrot. A person who speaks no language but
> Polish, for instance, should be able to get our software and figure
> out the basics of building and running it. There are going to be some
> hardships here, but I would much rather provide *something* to help
> point a new user in the right direction as opposed to providing
> *nothing* for them. Any user who is interested in using Parrot should
> be given a fighting chance.
>
> If a non-english speaker is following a poorly translated README and
> gets stuck, I guess it's tough cookies. There is a language barrier
> and we did the best we could. These are people who would have a zero
> percent chance of working with Parrot. With a translated README, even
> a poorly translated one, that chance is not zero.
>
> > Personally, I think translations are a waste of time because it's simply
> too
> > hard to write good translations and keep them updated. We'd better spend
> > that time elsewhere. There has been some discussion about the quality of
> the
> > translated READMEs already. No offense to the GCI participants, of
> course. I
> > wouldn't have written better translations when I was that age. I can only
> > speak for the German version but as it stands now I'd even consider it
> > off-putting for German language users. I can offer to fix that although
> I'd
> > rather spend my time on other things.
>
> I won't be spending any of my time writing, reading, reviewing, or
> updating translations. I don't ask anybody else to do it either
> (besides asking people to review GCI submissions, which is a 1-time
> thing and is for the benefit of students). If you don't want to work
> on translations, don't. Your considerable talents would be much better
> utilized, from a Parrot perspective, deep in the code anyway.
>
> We do have some developers who do want to work on translations.
> Developers who are interested in "soft" work like translations might
> be enticed to join the project as well if we had a better
> infrastructure for it. There are some people who might only
> participate for documentation and translation tasks.
>
> In short, having translations of things like README doesn't cost
> anything for people who don't want to be involved with it, doesn't
> cause us to lose developers, might actually attract new developers,
> and will certainly attract people whose only interest is in
> translation. I don't want to do it, you don't want to do it, but some
> people do. Best thing we can do is set up a system so that these
> people can get involved but do so in a way that they don't interfere
> with code development. Leave it up to the translators to keep things
> up to date and make sure everything is accurate.
>
> --Andrew Whitworth
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:47:59 -0500
> From: Todd Olson <tco2 at cornell.edu>
> To: "parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org" <parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org>
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID: <059661A5-AFC5-4328-B51A-C6F8DF7952B2 at cornell.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> On 2010-Dec-16, at 11:03, Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>
> >> Should we understand that the english translation would
> >> otherwise be on the same footing as all other versions ...
> >> that is, they would all be in docs/translations/en/
> >
> > I would say no. We need something in the root directory for users to
> > see, and the English README makes the most sense for that purpose.
>
> How about the root directory containing a symlink to the English README
> in the docs/translations?
>
>
> Regards,
> Todd
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 13:18:28 -0500
> From: Will Coleda <will at coleda.com>
> To: Todd Olson <tco2 at cornell.edu>
> Cc: "parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org" <parrot-dev at lists.parrot.org>
> Subject: Re: Translations
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimUE-Z3wNK+H6e6jySr8GFM=wvc566qLJrvD3S6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Todd Olson <tco2 at cornell.edu> wrote:
> >
> > On 2010-Dec-16, at 11:03, Andrew Whitworth wrote:
> >
> >>> Should we understand that the english translation would
> >>> otherwise be on the same footing as all other versions ...
> >>> that is, they would all be in ?docs/translations/en/
> >>
> >> I would say no. We need something in the root directory for users to
> >> see, and the English README makes the most sense for that purpose.
> >
> > How about the root directory containing a symlink to the English README
> > in the docs/translations?
>
> Non starter, as not all our target platforms have symlinks. (Even if I
> knew how to do that in git)
>
> --
> Will "Coke" Coleda
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.parrot.org/mailman/listinfo/parrot-dev
>
>
> End of parrot-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 22
> ******************************************
>
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